Sam

[Drama]

Paul Klee (moderator) ? 03:02 PM on Wed, 02/22/2012
IL- Big miss. Not a program-changing miss, but a big miss. Said this on Chicago radio the other day, but most people emphasize the blue-chip misses (Scheyer, Rose, Wright, etc.) as what doomed this era. I tend to think it was the lower-profile guys they could've landed but didn't - guys like Lewis Jackson (your basic miss), Chasson Randle (committed once, reconsidered, UI had the wrong recruiter on him for most of his recruitment) and Evan Turner (offer came late, Ohio State got involved, it's a wrap). Those are the guys you need to maintain stability. And with Turner, you get stability and one of the most dominant players to develop in the Big Ten. And hindsight's 20-20. All programs miss on players. SIU was Darren Brooks' only Division I scholarship offer. Weber's staff found him and DB was named MVC Player of the Year twice and would've been a first-team All-Big Ten guy at least once. The Illinois misses have just been more damning than most. Klee

I agree with this but I also think they have started to figure it out.  Orris and La Tulip are not program changers but they are guys they will listen and compete and are good for team chemistry.  I think the staff was trying to mix in those guys with James and Hill so the roster was not full of the same level of talent keeping guys on the bench waiting to play.  Orris and La tulip are likely to mesh well with Weber as opposed to the situation we have now.

[Musson]

Chief, you said, and it seems to be an easy mantra around here that our guys don't improve or develop, like others do who are in different programs with different styles or different coaches.

I didn't ask what players, who aren't even in the same class, have found more on the court success as a team. Hummel was just as good, if not better as a Soph as he is today. Two knees will do that to a guy though, so might as well scrap him. LewJack?  Is he better this year?  Or the year before?  His numbers don't really show it. And he has had better team success, buy player development? 

I just have to take issue with all this constant the players are being sold short because our coach sucks at developing talent crap. Out coach sucks because he can't get a group of 13 kids to win PERIOD!!  When Bill Cole, Shawn Pruit, Chester Frazier, Warren Carter, Mike Tisdale, Mike Davis and Brian Randle are good enough coming OUT of a program to be paid to play, they did improve and develop.

Without seeing evidence of players from the same class with the same rankings who are personally out performing our guys, I'm not sure that statement can be anything more than just piling on.

If it were a question of other players finding more on the court TEAM SUCCESS than our highly touted guys, then I'm right there with you. But again, to say the players get worse? Stay the same? 

Again, no issue with a statement about lack of onthe court results(wins and losses), but to say players do not improve their basketball skill under BW and his system is not true. 

Sure, there is the occasional Semrau who nobody knows what happened with that kid, or why he would voluntarily forgo his last year of eligibility. But, the majority of the kids that BW recruited and Coached through Graduation improved and developed in spite of the number of wins and losses.

[Big Phil]

Chief, you said, and it seems to be an easy mantra around here that our guys don't improve or develop, like others do who are in different programs with different styles or different coaches.

I didn't ask what players, who aren't even in the same class, have found more on the court success as a team. Hummel was just as good, if not better as a Soph as he is today. Two knees will do that to a guy though, so might as well scrap him. LewJack?  Is he better this year?  Or the year before?  His numbers don't really show it. And he has had better team success, buy player development? 

I just have to take issue with all this constant the players are being sold short because our coach sucks at developing talent crap. Out coach sucks because he can't get a group of 13 kids to win PERIOD!!  When Bill Cole, Shawn Pruit, Chester Frazier, Warren Carter, Mike Tisdale, Mike Davis and Brian Randle are good enough coming OUT of a program to be paid to play, they did improve and develop.

Without seeing evidence of players from the same class with the same rankings who are personally out performing our guys, I'm not sure that statement can be anything more than just piling on.

If it were a question of other players finding more on the court TEAM SUCCESS than our highly touted guys, then I'm right there with you. But again, to say the players get worse? Stay the same? 

Again, no issue with a statement about lack of onthe court results(wins and losses), but to say players do not improve their basketball skill under BW and his system is not true. 

Sure, there is the occasional Semrau who nobody knows what happened with that kid, or why he would voluntarily forgo his last year of eligibility. But, the majority of the kids that BW recruited and Coached through Graduation improved and developed in spite of the number of wins and losses.

good point Musson.

To be fair Pruitt was supposed to be good but not the other guys

[Musson]

And the Orris and LaTulip hate... And calling them scrubs before even seeing them dribble a ball on campus is hate, is just ridiculous.

Would it be so bad to have a couple kids, one who is reported to have great ball handling and passing skills ( a pass first PG) and a kid who wants to be part of the program bad enough he will pay his own way to do it be so bad for the program?

It would really suck if Orris turned into the next Chet and LaTulip somehow the next Nate Mast.

Wouldn't ever want to see anyone on the team with the positive attitude and will to win, all the while lacking basketball skill, players like that anywhere near the program again.

I'll stick with the psychotic MDAAS who "think" they are better than the program. I'll stick with the guys who care about the name on the back of the jersey more than the colors they wear.


That will fix it!!

[Musson]

What was Pruit ranked?

One thing for sure that he did not improve or develop...worst FT shooter ever!!

Well, that and being a black hole in the offense. But at least he had the ability to hold the low block and get the ball.  I wonder if he brought that with him, or if he learned that?

[Big Phil]

What was Pruit ranked?

One thing for sure that he did not improve or develop...worse FT shooter ever!!

Well, that and being a black hole in the offense. But at least he had the ability to hold the low block and get the ball.  I wonder if he brought that with him, or if he learned that?

I believe he was in the 30's

EDIT Rivals had him 78, Scout 54 in 2004

[matfive2]

And the Orris and LaTulip hate... And calling them scrubs before even seeing them dribble a ball on campus is hate, is just ridiculous.

Would it be so bad to have a couple kids, one who is reported to have great ball handling and passing skills ( a pass first PG) and a kid who wants to be part of the program bad enough he will pay his own way to do it be so bad for the program?

It would really suck if Orris turned into the next Chet and LaTulip somehow the next Nate Mast.

Wouldn't ever want to see anyone on the team with the positive attitude and will to win, all the while lacking basketball skill, players like that anywhere near the program again.

I'll stick with the psychotic MDAAS who "think" they are better than the program. I'll stick with the guys who care about the name on the back of the jersey more than the colors they wear.


That will fix it!!

I don't need to see players, I need to know what talent evaluators, who know a lot more about basketball skills than me (certainly) and you (probably), think about them. And the bottom line is not a single major program was offering either of these guys a roster spot and no rankings site I have read described them as being high D1 talent. And the UofI basketball program is a major, high D1 program.

Those are the facts, spin them any way you want them. HS player rankings mean something, just like prospect rankings in MLB and at the NFL combine mean something. They give us (the fans) a picture of the likelihood that a player will reach his ceiling and what that ceiling actually is.

These guys were something like 2* or low 3* recruits. There's a huge bust factor in that range. The odds are against either of these 2 players being able to cut in in a Power 6 conference and they were rated accordingly by scouts who have seen each player multiple times. Sure, they might succeed, but its more likely that they won't be very good at all, especially in BT conference play.

And as for the rest of your post about positive attitude, will to win, and being more team focused and less selfish, How in the world do you know anything about either of these players attitudes, will to win, team first attitude "before even seeing them dribble a ball on campus"?

And as for the "psychotic MDAAS" 1st we haven't had many MDAAs and the 2nd to last one was a great player, not "psychotic" in the least. We've had exactly one who could be classified as a "psychotic MDAAS" so it's nice to see you generalize based on ONE recent experience with a "psychotic MDAA" I agree with you, we shouldn't spend a lot of time recruiting MDAA players because they are all psychotic and we should really focus on our recruiting efforts on 2* and 3* players because they might be more team focused 

[JimmyChitwood]

Maybe you should put the crack pipe down and try some of this wacky because all that crack has obviously it has burnt your optical never beyond repair.

What you are suggesting is exactly what has contributed to the losses we have seen.  Yeah, let's give BP and DJ time at PG so DJ can dribble the ball up the floor, hand it off to someone and go hide in the corner like he does all the time.  That will fix it. Let's give more time with the ball to BP, so he can chuck more early shot clock threes or ball hog it for 35 seconds as he dribbles into traps or passes it to the opposite team.  That will fix it.

After all, as good as those two are at running point, we might as well just keep TA on the bench too.  BP and DJ for President!!!  Whoo hoo, where's my bong?  BW is so stupid to not see that those two are awesome at running the team.  Cough cough, man that's some good wacky!

Letting DJ bring the ball up would be a huge mistake since he wouldnt be able to handle ball pressure from a jr high team, but to say that Paul or perhaps Bertrand couldnt do what Sam does is silly. Sam does pretty much what you just said. Brings the ball up and does 1 of 3 things...dribbles around for a few seconds 30 ft from the basket with 1 hand in the air acting like he is starting some type of offense that we dont have, or he comes down and for some unknown reason will toss it to a trailing Meyers Leonard who will be 25 ft from the basket (wtf?), OR he comes down and immediately passes it to Paul or DJ who will be 5 ft from him 28 ft from the basket. Now I dont know about you but I dont think that that is really what a PG is supposed to be doing.

[Musson]

So what's the answer then Coach??

Leave our back up PG on the bench or give TA 40 minutes?

Make DJ, BP, or JBert do something none of them are good at?

Or just repeatedly bash Sam as often as possible, when you find time between bashing Weber posts?

And because you are the Coach, how about telling us why you would refuse a solid 2-3 star kid to be a walk on?  What does I hurt?  Or is it you just can stand to be around a scrub, because you are a way better coach than that?

And while it might not be "likely" that either one of these kids turn into solid players, what if they do?  Then who is to blame for not being able to see a trait that these kids might have that is sorely needed on this team....BW when he's long gone?

Chester Frazier. Solid player. Great heart and will to win. 2 star.

Mike Davis. Great rebounder and athletic freak with a nice soft jumper.  Lead the BIG in double doubles. 2 star.

Both playing basketball for a living. Those are just facts, as you like to point out.

[matfive2]

Maybe you should put the crack pipe down and try some of this wacky because all that crack has obviously it has burnt your optical never beyond repair.

What you are suggesting is exactly what has contributed to the losses we have seen.  Yeah, let's give BP and DJ time at PG so DJ can dribble the ball up the floor, hand it off to someone and go hide in the corner like he does all the time.  That will fix it. Let's give more time with the ball to BP, so he can chuck more early shot clock threes or ball hog it for 35 seconds as he dribbles into traps or passes it to the opposite team.  That will fix it.

After all, as good as those two are at running point, we might as well just keep TA on the bench too.  BP and DJ for President!!!  Whoo hoo, where's my bong?  BW is so stupid to not see that those two are awesome at running the team.  Cough cough, man that's some good wacky!

LOL, Musson, your eyes must be as red as mine are burned. Go back and watch the footage of just how frequently Sam and Tracy are on the court together. It's frequent and it's just as stupid and questionable a decision as when Thibs has DRose and CJ Watson or Watson and JL3 on the court at the same time.

Sam isn't the backup point guard, not when he's on the court with the starting PG 50% of the time. If he was the backup PG, then he should only be on the court when Tracy isn't in the game or at least the two shouldn't be on the court together for that long.

Yeah, let's give BP and DJ time at PG so DJ can dribble the ball up the floor, hand it off to someone and go hide in the corner like he does all the time.  That will fix it. Let's give more time with the ball to BP, so he can chuck more early shot clock threes or ball hog it for 35 seconds as he dribbles into traps or passes it to the opposite team.  That will fix it.

in 9 2012 games (180 total minutes of court time), Sam's totaled 9 points, 9 RBs, 13 assists, and 6 TOs or averages of 20 minutes, 1 point, 1 RB, 1.4 assists, and 0.67 TOs. Those numbers just don't merit the court time and it's not like we've won a lot of these games where Sam has been playing 20 min a game.

Maybe letting DJ or Paul handle the ball more when Tracy needs a rest isn't the right answer, I don't know what the right answer is, I'm not the coach. But what I do know is that playing Sam 20 min a game hasn't been working. So I can't see any rationale reason to continue doing something that clearly isn't working.

My only complaint about Weber as a coach is that he is inflexible, that's his major flaw and ultimately the reason he'll be fired. The talent to play good basketball is here. He recruited players that don't fit his system and he's not willing to bend the system to fit the players.